It seems liberals will never learn.
CMS board: It’s time to break up concentrations of school poverty
It’s time to revise the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools student assignment plan to undo the intense concentrations of poverty that hobble many schools’ chances at excellence, most board members agreed Thursday.
But they remain a long way from figuring out how to do that. At a committee meeting with eight of nine members participating, they talked about expanding magnets and exploring other ways to create economic diversity without driving families out of public schools.
Eric Davis, one of several members who said current poverty levels at many schools are unacceptable, summarized the challenge of changing those patterns: “How will we decide which students to move out of the schools, and to where? Which students will we decide to move into the schools, and from where?”
“That’s the question,” committee chair Tom Tate responded wryly. And the rest of the group burst into laughter at the understatement. MORE..... http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article31029576.html Also, read Tom Tate's ramblings about "diversity and poverty" and how to errr.... well read it:
Eric Davis, one of several members who said current poverty levels at many schools are unacceptable, summarized the challenge of changing those patterns: “How will we decide which students to move out of the schools, and to where? Which students will we decide to move into the schools, and from where?”
“That’s the question,” committee chair Tom Tate responded wryly. And the rest of the group burst into laughter at the understatement. MORE..... http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/education/article31029576.html Also, read Tom Tate's ramblings about "diversity and poverty" and how to errr.... well read it:
Some Thoughts/Assumptions Regarding a Student Assignment Plan
Prepared by Tom Tate for Discussion by the Policy Committee
on August 13, 2015
1. I think the Board wants every school to be one that the parents of children
assigned to it want their child/children to attend.
a. We do not presently have that reality across CMS.
b. I do not see how we can come up with a feasible Student Assignment Plan
as long as geography plays the primary role.
c. For the long-term we will need to work with the City and Town Councils
regarding zoning for mixed income/affordable housing throughout the
county.
d. Housing patterns are part of the long-term solution. For the short-term I
think the Board needs to hire an outside consultant who specializes in
these matters to help us see what mechanisms or demographics we can use
in the short-term to accomplish as much as we can toward our Board
Vision (to provide all students the best education available anywhere,
preparing every child to lead a rich and productive life) and Mission (to
maximize academic achievement by every student in every school).
2. I think a majority of the Board wants to see every school – as fully as possible –
reflect the diversity of our district overall so every student will receive the
education we want for him or her based on our Vision, Mission, Core Beliefs and
Commitments.
a. Unfortunately, we have too many hyper-segregated geographical areas and
thus too many hyper-segregated schools, whether by race and ethnicity or
poverty and wealth, or a combination.
b. To deal with this we probably need an outside consultant.
c. From what I have read diversity in individual schools helps all students
rise to their level of success academically and will provide students with
skills they will need to live and work in our diverse world.
3. I think a majority of the Board wants to change a system that currently privileges
those who have the time, the resources, the knowledge, and/or the experience to
find the best education for their individual child. Every parent wants this, but not
every parent has the capacity to make it happen. This phenomenon has resulted in
pockets throughout CMS where parents have found ways to opt out of their Home
Schools in large numbers.
a. I don’t see how we can relieve this except through a Student Assignment
Plan.
b. To deal with this issue we may need an outside consultant.
4. I think a majority of the Board wants us to talk with a consultant who may be able
to demonstrate how a Student Assignment Plan (given our demographics and
realities) could be designed that will make a difference in student achievement
and prepare every child to lead a rich and productive life.
5. I think some (maybe a minority) of the Board are concerned with the cost of
continuing to use programs, projects, and initiatives (which basically means more
resources) as the primary way for increasing student achievement in certain
schools. And are concerned because it costs so much and, in the long run, has not
worked.
6. At least three Board members have said that we need to take a critical/intentional
look at every school, or do a root cause analysis of every school, to understand
what needs to be done to make them more successful in educating every child. I
wonder how that plays into the development of a Student Assignment Plan.
7. We also have at least one member who wants us to offer at least two school
options to every student, another member who wants more data on how
concentrated-poverty in schools affects student achievement. I wonder if we need
to look more carefully at this before we move forward.
8. Another Board member wants us to look at JROTC at every school that has it, and
Marie G. Davis to see why so many students in those programs graduate. Is this
something we do before we move forward with student assignment?
9. We also have at least one member who says that predictive links cannot be cured
on a school bus, that six or seven hours a day is not enough to make the changes
we want, that without the whole community involved in the fix (town, city,
county, neighborhoods, etc.) all we will be doing is covering up the wounds.
10. And maybe we need to wait until we have more information from Project L.I.F.T.
and the Beacon Initiative.
11. And there is the concern about what constitutes a “bad” school (in part because of
the State’s school grading system) and how we deal with that reality no matter
where kids are assigned.
12. A couple of members think we should look at different grade level configurations
(K-2, 4-6, for example) along with student assignment.
13. I also recall someone talking about assigning students to schools based on
“expected student outcomes.” I don’t know how that works, especially beginning
with preK or Kindergarten, but maybe we should consider it.
14. What is missing?
Lord have mercy.
ReplyDelete# 10. Project LIFT and The Beacon Initiative:
ReplyDeleteCome on Tom, don't we already know how both of these projects are going to turn out - long term?
It's like a "Ground Hog's Day"
episode of the former TV show "Lost".
Play it again, Sam.
It truly boggles the mind...
DeleteI live in a rural area with plenty of Title 1 schools with lots of ESL students that perform better on less money than Title 1 schools in Charlotte. Most rural schools in my area relieved B's and C's from the state. Taking a B or a C school to an A school is doable under financial and high powered circumstances that LIFT and Beacon schools have
Deletethat rural schools can only dream of. My rural area doesn't have YMCA reading programs, summer programs, church sponsored programs, Arts and Science council programs, United Way programs or much of anything else that urban students in Charlotte have free and reduced access to. Urban America is running out of excuses.
Alicia,
DeleteYou know that the real reason that no one cares about the rural kids is that they don't threaten to riot or become hardened criminals as adults.
So the money gets spent on the squeakiest wheel.
Even though it is likely to result in more bang for each buck elsewhere.
That's just the way we've been rolling for the past few decades.
No Shamash, they may not turn into "thug" criminals but they might end up making a great "shake and back" bottle of meth. in their future. It just doesn't end up in the headlines. They just end up with rotten brain cells, to dumb to become harden criminals but smart enough to screw like bunnies and make more.
DeleteYep, it just doesn't end up in the headlines, so no one really cares much.
DeleteAfter all, those folks are mostly "white" and "privileged", so they don't really need much help.
"To deal with this we probably need an outside consultant."
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm still in HK, drop me a line.
I'll do the work for $100/hr just like the ladies at the local kaffee klatsch.
Been spending a few weeks behind the Great Firewall of China, so no Google or Blogs for me. Also, didn't want to sign into my accounts and risk having my id's taken (not that they probably aren't already).
ReplyDeleteAnyway, after coughing up parts of both lungs (one in Shanghai and the other in Beijing), it's good to be back in the relatively fresh air of HK.
Just in time for school, too.
Yippee. Man, those fees aren't cheap.
But in HK, private is about the only way to go for a decent education in ENGLISH. Unlike the US where they bend over backwards to help the "minorities", HK pretty much lets them fend for themselves and only has a few special schools for the "poor" minorities.
And, yes, they ARE SEPARATE.
So "segregation" is definitely the norm here.
Just about every other school (especially the cheaper government schools) mostly teach in Cantonese (or attempted English with strong a Cantonese flavor). Plus all the informal communication among the kids is in Cantonese.
If they taught in Mandarin, we'd probably let our kids try it, but Cantonese just isn't widely enough used to make it worth the additional stress.
So we have to use private schools.
But I have to say the schools are pretty darned good, so I guess it's worth it in the long run.
Still, I have to wonder if the kids wouldn't be better off if we were living in a trailer somewhere near a half-decent rural school.
At least our kids aren't on the typical Chinese academic treadmill which seems a bit brutal. They just have one or two standardized assessments per year and those are used purely for advisory purposes.
I thought the EOGs were borderline child abuse last year. To make matters worse is the Read to Achieve initiative that fails kids in third grade who aren't reading on grade level. I had kids in 5th grade last year who failed earlier grades and were terrified of the EOG's to the point of physical and psychological duress. The stress on me after trying to teach kids "on grade level"
ReplyDeletefractions who couldn't accurately do long division or multiply made me feel sick. By the end of the year I concluded that the kids who were so far behind in math would never be on grade level in math - ever. So why continue to punish these kids year after year with a failing test score instead of having them perform SOMETHING well? If a kid can't comprehend "on grade level" 5th grade math then why not have them achieve math at a lower grade level without holding them back a grade which does far more harm than good? Kids need to feel and KNOW they can be successful or they shut down. A 5th grader who can successfully accomplish long division is far better off than a fifth grader who can't do long division let alone fractions. I believe in multi-age ability grouping and then setting goals and testing from here. But we can't do this because it isn't "fair" or "just" even though it's perfectly fair and just to exclude kids from AP Calculus once they reach high school.
Tom Tate is right about the issue of state letter grades that punish schools rather than help them. Project LiFT has stated objectives to have 90% of students on grade level, 90% of students achieving one year's growth in one year, and a 90% graduation rate at schools that all relieved F's. I'm sorry but taking an F school to an A school in five years isn't doable. Ain't gonna' happen. I'm all for lofty goals but these are so unrealistic they're ridiculous.
So how about acknowledging the truth and aiming for a realistic C grade and rejoicing in this while spending as much money and effort getting C and B schools up to an A?
"I believe in multi-age ability grouping and then setting goals and testing from here."
DeleteI think that makes sense.
It's exactly what my kid's school does in teaching Mandarin.
They have three levels of teachers for each class and also group the kids roughly according to their abilities. They try to keep kids of the same age groups together, but split them on abilities.
Sometimes kids a few years apart will be in the same class, but usually not more than a year or two difference.
No sixth graders in classes with first graders, though there may be an older class which teaches essentially the same material to fifth and sixth graders which is being taught to first and second graders.
If their abilities change during the school year, they may be assigned a different class and teacher. It's happened with my kids. That keeps the kids from bogging down the class by being either too far behind or too far ahead.
That is necessary because they have native Mandarin students as well as those who know absolutely nothing about the language in the school (say a kid from Spain), as well as folks of all shades of expertise in between.
It's probably about as close as you can get to "individualized" instruction in a typical school setting. For the money we're paying, that is...
However, with all that being said, the school pretty much draws the line on trying to be everything to everyone.
For example, they have clearly stated that they are primarily an English language school and DO NOT intend to bring students up to native levels in Mandarin or to necessarily cater to the crowd which wants this (mainly the Mainland Chinese).
For that, they strongly suggest outside classes and tutors.
So they do know their limits. Even though they do try to cater to the "individual" needs of every child the best they can in other areas.
I think the real problem in the US is the whole idea of "social promotion" and keeping kids with their peers. It has ruined schools because they try to avoid the "stigma" of actually admitting that some kids are just better at some things than other kids.
DeleteExcept in sports, of course, where it's still acceptable (in fact, highly encouraged) to "discriminate" against the lesser mortals.
Where ARE those remedial football classes?
Our educational system - not just CMS - states that we have an obligation to meet individual student needs. But we DON'T meet students where they are because we're fixated on standardized test scores that have nothing to do with individual capacities, strengths and weaknesses. Meeting individual student needs when the only goal is raising or maintaining an overall school letter grade is a sham. I remember when South Charlotte Middle School eliminated recess in order to maintain its high test scores. It took the state to pass a law requiring F.A.T. (Fresh Air Time) for middle school students. It wasn't about what was best for 12-year-old kids, it was about what was best for the reputation of the principal and the school.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I think it's impossible for schools to meet every child's individual needs. That's pure pie in the sky stuff. The only way to really do that is probably with intensive tutoring. You know, the kind that is usually reserved for Kings, Queens, and Trumps.
Delete"I remember when South Charlotte Middle School eliminated recess in order to maintain its high test scores."
DeleteI can't imagine why the parents didn't put a stop to that.
Once they realized their kids would probably suck at HS football...
The problem with getting F schools up to a C is then having no schools scoring an F. If a certain percentage of schools aren't failing, then the standardized testing is flawed. Right? The testing isn't rigorous enough if no one fails. So the nature of this kind of grading system requires that some schools fail. It's a never ending, vicious cycle.
ReplyDeleteWell, that's called "grading on the curve" as I recall.
DeleteWith a "normal" population it works pretty well.
It's only when no one really deserves to score low (or "fail") that it becomes a real problem.
I don't think we've reached that point just yet.
I think a good analogy is in automotive ratings like those that Consumer Reports use.
They still rate cars according to those black and red balls, but as time goes on, the number of problems with all cars generally get less because the general quality is improving.
An excellent rated car of 20 years ago would probably be worse than average today.
And yet there are still significant enough differences to make that scale useful.
Until we see that kind of progress with schools, I don't think we need to abandon the curve just yet.
Oh, and I might also add that grading on the curve is a problem when no one deserves an "A", either.
DeleteI've seen THAT happen a lot in schools.
But if you HAVE TO give out some A's, then a few undeserving folks will get them.
Which is probably WHY we had to resort to standardized testing as some sort of method for discovering who is really learning what they should.
Again, just another vicious cycle.
Maybe it's a vicious bicycle we're riding.
With all that said, I have to admit that we are a little concerned about whether or not our kid's school is REALLY teaching the kids what they "should" be learning.
ReplyDeleteIt's tough getting weaned off those standardized tests once you've been raised on them.
However, the kids are graded and do have some points for comparison, but we have to have a lot of "faith" in the school and the teachers.
That's really hard for a lot of parents, especially the Chinese and those raised under systems which test a lot (as well as for the more than occasional "Tiger Mom" or dad in the mix).
I'm fairly sure I would NOT have the same level of confidence in most US public schools as I have in the school our kids attend. Especially without the outside evidence to support it. I think at this stage, though, I can tell whether our children are learning and improving. As they get older, it may not be enough.
They are both currently in primary school, so it's not like we're dealing with Calculus and Chemistry.
I do know of one parent who sent their two children to "good" CMS schools. Providence and such. One kid didn't do so great and was just a somewhat B-average student. But the youngest was a real star.
They decided that the youngest was actually pretty talented academically (honors, AP classes, etc., etc.) and so decided to spring for the big-bucks private school, Charlotte Latin, hoping to improve the kid's chances at getting into one of the "better" colleges later, as those kids tend to do.
When they took the Charlotte Latin placement tests, the smart kid had to re-do some math classes in which he had scored very well in some AP coursework. (excuse me if I don't get the exact terminology, AP, or whatever, for these whiz-bang classes correct, it's not on our radar just yet...)
So I do know that there are different "standards" out there even for the supposedly "best" when you compare public to private schools.
Not sure how anyone can really tell if their child's education is really top notch or not anymore.
And I'm not sure how much it really matters, either, as Wiley said about that Harvard degree.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteShamash,
ReplyDeleteThe "different standards" is why we grew up with low pressure Iowa Test of Basic Skills and SAT testing once we reached high school. The ITBS was used as a tool to help teachers and parents assess how their kids were doing without the insanity associated with high-stakes testing today.
After CMS jerked us around with its student assignment shenanigans for a second time in four years, we pulled our "gifted" and learning disabled son out of the system and sent them to Charlotte Christian which is part of the "elite" private school network but considered the "bastard child" among the likes of Latin, Providence Day and Charlotte Country Day. My "gifted" South Charlotte Middle School son was unceremoniously put in Christian's "average" math track classes and graduated taking pre-Cal - not AP Cal - despite earning a degree in Business and Finance 4 years later from a $42,000 a year university which enabled him to land his first real job without having to recite, "Would you like fries with that"? My "gifted" son took and passed AP Art History and AP Studio Art instead. He wrote his college essay on the difficult challenges associated with passing AP Art History which required a phenomenal amount of writing and memorization.
My learning disabled son finished high school with Models and Functioning - no Calculus - and did have to take a remedial math class at CPCC but so what? He is in CPCC's 2-year program that enables students to transfer all credits to any 4-year state university. It's likely he won't establish a career in a STEM related field but then again, so what? He's smart and capable at so many other things that will enable him to support himself and not be a drag on society. And isn't this what it's supposed to be all about, Charlie Brown?
I think the most important thing is that the kids keep trying until they find something that clicks.
DeleteThat's what college used to be about, but now a lot of it is career focused. Before starting college, I thought I would be a History major. But I chose Math as a major because I felt that it was my "weakest" subject (based on standardized tests) and really had difficulty reading math texts on my own, unlike nearly every other subject.
I dallied a bit in Psychology, but decided against dealing with that department because I only liked one professor.
And, while tooling around with math I picked up computer programming which turned out to be a "career path" I didn't even consider but ended up following a few decades.
When I was in college, most people had NO IDEA what anyone would EVER do with computers. When people would ask me, I couldn't even give them a reasonable answer.
Yes, it was THAT long ago...
Speaking of STEM Education:
ReplyDeleteThe Washington Post had a great article on the dangers of America's obsession with STEM programing at the K - 12 level at the expense of subjects like Art History and Studio Art.
Worth a read.
"c. For the long-term we will need to work with the City and Town Councils
ReplyDeleteregarding zoning for mixed income/affordable housing throughout the
county.
d. Housing patterns are part of the long-term solution. "
I agree with Tom on this one which is one reason I think rural Title 1 schools generally perform better. The dilapidated trailer park kids aren't hyper-segregated from everyone else.
I don't agree that ALL parents care about their children's education. This simply isn't true. Some don't give a rats behind because they are too consumed with their own selfishness needs and endless problems. Last year my "C" performing state letter grade class had one kid in foster care, one kid with a meth addicted mother in jail, another kid with a father in jail, a number of kids living at the poverty level, a kid whose father died falling in a creek face first in a drunken stupor (he was found floating several days later by a fisherman), and a 13-year-old 5th grader with a stepfather who regularly beat his mother, his brother, and him. All of these kids were WHITE kids without the benefit of free laptop give-a-ways, Bill Gates foundation funding, star superintendent search firms, and $55 million dollar Project LIFT initiatives. No $100 an hour consultants either. I had a homeless gay CMS student live with me a year whose mother and biological father didn't give a rats behind about his education either. All these kids had in their lives was at least one adult who did care and a staff of highly underpaid teachers trying to fight the good fight.
I get sick and tired of hearing how every parent cares about their child's education. No they don't and there is only so much society can do about this.
"I get sick and tired of hearing how every parent cares about their child's education. "
DeleteI agree. Many don't. And neither do the kids. Again, I went to HS for 3 years in a rural area.
It was a largely peaceful group, no gang fights, knifings, etc., etc., but also very little ambition.
Maybe 10-20 percent of the kids actually gave a crap about anything other than the next weeks football game, if that.
Some of the kids would even challenge the teachers with comments like "why do I need this, I'm going to be a lumberjack just like my daddy".
Really, I had a low-performing kid say that in one of my English classes.
Of course, in the real world, he was stupid enough to pick a bunch of wild mushrooms and eat them to get "high" and stumbled upon a batch which pretty much fried his brain.
So he had to be led around like a pet by his mom for a few years, last I heard about him decades ago.
Not quite sure what happened to him after that, but I do know that most of the lumberjacking jobs were gone by that time anyway, so his career options were probably getting worse.
Maybe if those kids threatened to "riot" and burn the woods down, someone might notice.
DeleteBut I doubt it.
I probably shouldn't share this - since my own children are far from perfect - but I want to make the point that you can't blame everything on parents either. I have a 23-year-old niece (on the other side of the family) who is pregnant with her second child with a second baby-daddy after failing to earn an associate's degree over a 5-year period in Preschool Studies at her local community college opting to sell Mary Kay products part-time instead. The only reason you and I won't be supporting her welfare and WIC checks by the time she has her third baby with a third father is because her parents - who are both medical doctors - will make certain this doesn't happen ensuring her ability to take her next cruise and secure her next appointment for highlights at the uptown hair salon.
ReplyDeleteI can't make this stuff up.
Relative, you want to talk about relatives...
DeleteWell, not today.
Actually, that sounds EXACTLY like one of my nieces.
Without the rich parents, of course, to get her back.
In fact, her mom officially "dumped" the whole family and just moved away, saying that she was getting tired of everyone mooching off her.
Which they were.
She was a director of training for greyhound racing and pretty much employed most of my extended family down at the tracks for many years.
Then, by her late 40's, she decided it was time to do for herself, so got herself a new boyfriend (retired military guy) and hit the road looking for a better life.
Last I heard, she was in Kansas.
"Trouble with the curve".....
ReplyDeleteJust like in the movie, some people know exactly what's wrong with public education while others can only see the status quo.
Gus could "hear" the curve and his daughter could hear and see that the batter was shifting his feet, while other scouts only saw power and a braggart in the potential player.
Grading schools on a curve and even grading schools at all is a waste of time and money. Saying you're going to increase all scores, dropout rates and graduation rates within 5 years is also wreckless.
Why is it Trump and Carson have risen to the top of the candidate list? Because they have cut the bullshit and telling it like it is, something myself and others here have done for years about public education, cutting through the diversity, lack of funding and poverty crap to expose the status quo.
How many more decades are we going to continue with this epic fail of public education?
The real problem with grading schools is that you can't separate the "school" from the students.
DeleteYou can have a bad school with great students which looks good and a really good school with bad students which looks horrible.
Again, it all boils down to the "social sciences" not really being useful sciences anymore.
Otherwise, we would have probably figured out a better way to evaluate schools by now.
And until the "social sciences", education professionals and politicans catch up, I'm still using my tried but true method...
DeleteZIP CODE. YES IT IS YOUR DESTINY.
All other things being equal, of course. Which they rarely are.
A little knowledge of demographics goes a long way today...
For the defense.
Wiley,
ReplyDeleteI just don't see a lot of women - white, black, Hispanic, Asian or purple voting for Donald Trump. Then again, between the ages of 18
and 48 I've yet to vote for a president who has actually won. Lol.
Here's the thing. So what? So what if he gets ZERO women to vote for him?
DeleteI don't believe he or Carson will be the eventual nominee, but it's refreshing to hear what many, many people are actually thinking. They are applauding Trump for cutting the crap, blowing up the politically correct status quo FOR THEM.
Too bad Donald chose to run after women were given the right to vote.
ReplyDeleteHeh, you never know, do you? Some women seem to go for the "bad boy" and The Donald is that in spades. You never know who will vote for the guy. I like his somewhat brutal honesty, though I doubt he has the broad appeal needed to win the election.
DeleteBut when you consider that he will most likely be running against Hillary, you have another candidate who probably alienates a lot of men, too.
Put them on the same ticket and you have a sure win.
Alicia,
ReplyDeleteWhich Washington Post article would that be? There are several on that topic. The one by Fareed Zakaria seems reasonable, but the more recent one talking about the social sciences (Lance Collins) misses an important point.
That point is that the "social sciences" seem to have stopped being "science" somewhere in the 1960's for the most part.
I know because I was once highly interested in the topic, and almost went for a Psychology major until I got to know the teaching staff (and their "politics") better.
I did go on to get enough credits to have a "minor" in the subject, but I pretty much exhausted the real science in the social science department in less than two years by taking about 4 courses.
The rest was mostly social propaganda and various "issues" and "rights" classes, like black issues, women's issues, gay issues, etc., etc., etc. You know, the whole "identity politics" stuff which was being formulated at that time.
Of course the department was HEAVILY influenced by several women who just happened to be lesbians AND communists (as they declared), so that didn't really help in my decision to only study under the only REAL guy with an actual scientific background and no obvious social agenda.
He was the "behavioralist" in the group. A dying breed at that time.
You see the fallout from that change in the various "Studies" departments in the universities which are staffed by those who practice and promote various alternative lifestyles that they also "study". So, you can be a "professional" at whatever you happen to be in real life.
Except for the "White European Male Studies" which is oddly lacking...
It's hard for me to really believe that they are practicing anything remotely resembling an objective "science" any longer.
But training rats and analyzing that sort of thing has its limits, so I did just enough to get the hang of the "science" part and let the rest go after seeing what the rest of the "social science" students were doing.
Especially when my potential "colleagues" got good grades by hanging out in gay bars watching the clientele "interact" and writing a paper about it.
Honestly, I knew a "couple" , gay male and female, who did this as one of their Sociology projects. Basically, they just went out and got drunk as often as they could and sat in the corner talking about people and then wrote a paper summarizing their chitchat.
Again, one of those things you just can't make up...
Though I did learn that they really LOVE peanut butter.
(The rats, not the gay bar clientele...)
Shamash,
ReplyDeleteJohn McCain is my kind of bad boy.
Ok. So my vote for Dukakis while attending UMass was probably not the best decision.
ReplyDeleteOn the bright side, I didn't vote for Jimmy Carter.
ReplyDeleteShamash,
ReplyDeleteFareed Zakaria. That's the Washington Post article I'm referring to.
Well, I largely agree with Zakaria in that it is a waste to focus on specific technology training in college. That's trade school/technical school stuff. And if that's what you want, then fine, go for it. But there is a place for all that other stuff (as long as it doesn't get too politicized in a PC way) in college/university.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I don't think ALL "STEM" is necessarily trade oriented.
I would consider some of it part of the "liberal arts" as well. Maybe that's because I studied more theoretical math, which they told me had NO PRACTICAL APPLICATION.
That is, until someone commercialized relational databases. Then such "theoretical" math as relational algebra and set theory had an application.
Darned if I wasn't ahead of the curve on THAT technology trend due to my non-STEM, non-technical theoretical math background which focused on things like set theory, number theory, topology, etc.,etc. and not on engineering related number crunching stuff.
However, I had to drop a philosophy class in symbolic logic because I was proving some of the same theorems in logic that we were using in topology and would get confused about which theorems we had already proved in which class. A real bummer. I should have taken one before the other, but not at the same time.
However, I really doubt the "value" of some of the liberal arts studies. Maybe not History, Archaeology, anthropology, and such because they do have a bit of research and "science" to them if done well.
But things like Philosophy just seem to have just withered on the vine. At one time, Philosophy was somewhat reserved for folks who had ALREADY MASTERED the sciences and arts to a large degree.
Now it appeals to the folks who aren't the least bit interested in doing the hard work that comes before "philosophizing" about things.
I can remember having somewhat vapid discussions with "philosophy" majors about the "meaning" and "limits" of science and math when they had never even taken an introductory science or math class.
Really funny how they had already learned how "useless", "limited", and "contradictory" these subjects were without ever having studied them.
Sure, mathematicians and physicists know the limits of mathematics and physics. Kurd Gödel (who they LOVE to quote) was a mathematician and Eisenberg (another favorite used to "debunk" science at the time) was a physicist.
However, despite all the "weaknesses" of STEM, we keep seeing progress in those areas.
Not sure exactly what the latest "progress" has been in Philosophy, though.
And I used to be a real fan of the stuff. Read it for pleasure, until I realized that to go any further meant I'd be analyzing what the meaning of the word "is" is forever.
Just for grins I decided to google "philosophical trends" to see what's cooking in the Philosophy world. I recognized a few of the names in this article (Quine, Russell, Kuhn, etc. as philosophy of science/math gurus).
Read it and your eyes will probably bleed...
http://thephilosopherseye.com/2011/11/22/the-future-of-philosophy-trends-in-philosophy%E2%80%A8-by-matti-eklund/
Seriously, is that the latest?
Philosophy seems more like it's tearing things down than building things up today.
I did seem something called "experimental Philosophy" which sounds interesting.
But I'm sure "real" Philosophers have already discounted its usefulness or place in "real" Philosophy. (Since that's what they tend to do so well...)
Oh well. Guess that's why I stopped reading and thinking about the crap.
Ah, make that Heisenberg, or you can't find him...
DeleteAnd YUCK. This also popped up in my Google search on philosophy...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780195328998.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780195328998-e-46
Recent Trends in Global Philosophy
The short bio of the author and keyword cross references pretty much sum it up for me...
Cynthia Townley
Cynthia Townley is Lecturer in Philosophy at Macquarie University, Sydney, Australia. She works in ethics, epistemology, and feminist philosophy, and has published on topics such as trust, ignorance, cyber-ethics, tolerance, and patriotism. Her current research is in trust, betrayal, and animal ethics.
Keywords: globalization, feminism, Native American philosophy, environmental philosophy, cosmopolitanism, theory of reparations
---------------
Yeah, now that's REAL "philosophy".
Theory of reparations?
Gawd, whose ass has she been kissing lately? Bucking for a promotion, I'd say.
Yuck.
Gee I wonder if anyone has earned a Ph.D. in Philosophy analyzing "Forty Acres and a Mule" just yet.
ReplyDeleteI'm almost afraid to check...
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/black-reparations/
Yeah, maybe they do need a budget cut.
I know I'm not the smartest person in the room here, but dang glad ya'll let me hang with you!
ReplyDeleteDid I overgeek again?
ReplyDeleteOh well... Thanks for the patience. I'm in recovery.
I needed 2 glasses of wine to think I got that.
ReplyDeleteI hope it was cheap wine. Wouldn't want to waste the good stuff.
DeleteOK, OK, I'll try to curb my enthusiasm for the offbeat.
But, hey, I'm the victim of a "liberal arts" education.
I know, I should have gone for the Computer Science degree, but there really weren't that many back then and I really didn't know until I went to college and took a part time work/study job programming that I was that interested (or particularly good) at it.
(And a little standardized "interest inventory" nudged me along that path as well.)
Along the way, though, I "dabbled" in a lot of things.
And was also somewhat disappointed in the "college" experience being somewhat of a treadmill going nowhere in particular (at times). Nothing kills interest like being forced to study in order to get grades to satisfy a curriculum requirements and such.
Took a few years to regain natural curiosity.
Just don't get me started on ancient History.
OK, my main point being that most of us can probably name a few good recent scientific or technical achievements and famous folks who have done well.
ReplyDeleteBut WHO can name a major breakthrough in Philosophy or any famous current philosophers who have made any contributions of any type to society in the last 50 years or so?
That pretty much sums it up.
Jonathan Gruber...
Delete